Lystrosaurus kit anyone?

[artdecovampire]

Its a majorly ambitious thing you are doing. Are you going to cast and sell the whole thing? I have to say looking at those piles of casts made me feel warm inside it looked magnificent. The sheer scale of it blew me away. I love the pics of the big trees, they really are big.

Going back to Palm fronds are hard to cast and Prehistorix has a lot of kits with tree ferns. Mark is having to make new moulds for these all the time as they wear out. They have to be the single most difficult thing to cast. I started to investigate a white metal casting of parts. My ex father in law John Adams who used to own Aeroclub models had a centrifugal casting machine. You put your metal originals between two rubber discs and the rubber is heated and forms a two part mould as its pressed around. Runners are cut in and it fits on the machine that spins the mould and the liquid white metal is poured in to a central funnel. He used it for undercarriage parts and ejector seats. The discs were cheap enough but the machine was expensive. The original part was usually plastic and he would make a heat resistant rubber mould to make a metal original by pouring white metal directly in to it. I had a go at making palm fronds using the heat resistant rubber but the temperature was always a problem and I ended up with three out of five fronds being cold shuts. I think my idea was if they were white metal you would be able to bend them in to a variety of positions. I'm not sure what the postage/mailing difference would be but our Sail back Swamp Extension would weigh almost a third more if the fronds were metal.

I'm looking forward to seeing this done. It will be amazing. I have Permian kit on the bench at the moment too but nowhere as ambitious. Rubber costs are prohibitive in the UK.

[jeffbrown]

I finally started tonight, I'll know in a few days just how long its going to take to get it all done. the entire thing is smaller then I was thinking but I have to think about shelf space I guess; it will be close to 18 inch's deep and more than 20 inch's wide when its done, more then that if I include the Swamp. with the swamp its split into 5 kits total and I'll offer them separately. I actually wanted the trees to be larger; if you go by the real size the trees I've done are about half the size they could be since in real life they were up to 120 ft tall; that's 'UP TO' so its all good.
been looking at the spin caster for awhile but have had sticker shock; the longer I think about it though the more I'm breaking down and thinking about getting one; still just thinking about it. watched a bunch of Utube videos on spin casting but that's about it. did see one with a guy that made his own, was thinking about going that route. Harbor freight tools has cheap drill presses; thought about getting one and tearing it apart to turn it into a spin caster. have not been able to get a good look at the casting machines so not sure how to do it yet, the one thing I don't want is to have a big metal decapitating Frisbee coming at me throwing hot metal as it chases me. its just not worth it but on the other hand the real ones are 2,000 bucks used and that does not include the melting pot or other equipment. wondering if I can just use silicone molds so I don't have to buy a vulcanizer; wondering how long the mold would last. I know they are used to make the metal copies that are then used to make the vulcanized rubber production molds but don't know how many I'd sell in the end so not sure the extra investment would be worth it. if the heat is an issue with incomplete pieces then might have to make the investment in that too. I did actually have a thought; did anyone try using resin instead of metal in one of those spin casters and how did that turn out.
going to try and do these bases with monster clay; I may have to start over if it doesn't work out; only used it once so far and did scrap that piece. it was only for a class and I wasn't going to keep it anyway. going to be a learning curve. think I'm going to get a mini torch to work with this stuff too and some kind of alcohol burner to keep the tools hot.

[TAY666]

Nov 20, 2016 3:45:11 GMT -5 jeffbrown said:

wondering if I can just use silicone molds so I don't have to buy a vulcanizer; wondering how long the mold would last.
I did actually have a thought; did anyone try using resin instead of metal in one of those spin casters and how did that turn out.

Yes on both counts.
Lots of people use silicone molds to pour white metal.
Here is a basic tutorial I found with a quick search
www.nigellawton009.com/Whitemetal_Casting_for_Beginners---Theory.htm

I don't see why you couldn't spin-cast resin. But I don't know why you would want to.
Pressure casting works just as well, without all the added headaches and additional equipment.

[jeffbrown]

Thanks Trevor,
interesting read. just wondering how long a silicone mold would last in production compared to a vulcanized rubber mold. I assume it would not last as long but might be wrong depending on the details and undercuts. I know the raw rubber mold discs are much cheaper when compared to silicone but you need the equipment.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYVIVzCmH10 (how miniatures are born)
this is the Utube video I was talking about. its 17 mins long and the guy is making tiny game pieces but it is very informative. the guy has made his own spin caster and vulcanizer and is running a business using them.
as far as spin casting vers pressure casting; they are two very different processes used for very different purposes. spin casting is used to /force the casting materials into very tiny mold spaces by multiplying the weight of the material several X using the G-forces produced by the spinning motion/inertia of the machine. Pressure casting is used to force the air bubbles that form between the mold and resin or in the resin introduced by mixing into solution which is basically the opposite of opening a bottle of soda. this gives a crisp solid casting but it does not force the resin into small openings; basically its gravity poured and it needs to go into those openings under its own weight whatever that is, getting a good head of pressure by having a large/deep pouring spout helps but it still only 1G. once the pressure is put to it, it pushes on all parts so doesn't really help push it into those small spaces unless the there is a tiny amount of trapped air, small enough to be forced into solution. that's why you still need cuts to let air escape. the pressure pushes into them as well. so in the end, the mold can be poured w/o pressure; if it doesn't work w/o pressure its probably not going to work with pressure. the Pachy scales are one of the reasons to use pressure casting, so I don't I get pin holes in a lot of them. because of the way the head needs to be poured I still sometimes get bubbles on the chin, they would be larger I suppose if I didn't use pressure but it is not a magic fix to be rid of them. if I tried to gravity pour into the small openings and thin branches of a leaf mold it would not get in to it all because there would not be enough (head)pressure pushing it, an injection molder would do it because of the huge amounts of pressure but I don't have the money for a spin caster much less for steel pressure molds and an injection molding machine.
looking at the setup this guy on the video has I think I can do it w/o having to spend the 2,000 bucks for a used one but the guy did have access to a machine shop and I don't.

[artdecovampire]

In my experience cleaning the centrifuge of white metal is easy. It just peels off or can be picked out. When set it doesn't attach itself to a metal surface with any true grip. It can be melted out of narrow areas with a blow torch. It rarely gets stuck and zooms in to the mould if you use the right amount. Resin is strangely viscous and would stick to and obstruct some of the surfaces causing a heck of a clean up. Rotational casting, however which creates hollow parts can be used with resin and rubber moulds. You can make a rotational frame out of DIY bits from a hardware. The mould is rotated in 360 pattern and the resin slowly coats and sets inside evenly about the surface. Its like slip casting ceramics but sometimes uses heat to quick cure the plastics inside. I think its how they make vinyl kits but I've only ever seen it making bigger outdoor toys.

[TAY666]

That is one drawback to trying to spin cast resin.
You are going to have a lot of waste. With white metal, you just melt it down and use it again.
Not so with resin.

As far as gravity pouring and getting resin into tight, tiny areas.
From what I understand, that is one of the reasons casters usually talc their molds. Supposed to help it flow into those kinds of places.
Also, some casters do a bit of slush-molding first, then finish filling the mold.
Basically, they pour a bit in the mold, slosh it around a bit, then finish filling it.
Apparently it helps fill some of those hard-to-reach areas.
Good venting will help too. You have to give that trapped air someplace to go.

Now mind you. I don't have actual experience like Jeff does.
I've just picked up a lot of info over the years talking to some of the casters that have been doing this stuff forever.

[jeffbrown]

yea, the resin thing was just a thought with the spin casting. as far as roto casting, I had a hell of a learning curve once I built mine. I didn't have slow setting resin when I started my first casting. the resin heated up in the mold pretty good when I was spinning it ( never could get an electric motor that I could run slow enough to use), I was spinning by hand. I forgot about heating of the air when the resin went off and the massive air expansion blew the hot resin between the mold halves and it went slinging all over the place including on me, all over the roto caster, on the walls, ceiling and all over the hardwood floors in the spare bedroom I use as a workroom. I was able to clean it off everything but it soaked into the wood floors and its now permanent; I was casting bright green at the time. I may have been spinning it a little too fast also, I guess. I cut a tiny straight slit in the mold halves; I had some small brass pipes left over from something, the kind you get at the hobby shop along with other small plastic shapes; Plastistuct I think is the name of the company. I cut a length of this pipe and positioned it between the molds so when it was closed the opening was about in the middle of the mold so as the air heated up it had a place to escape. the resin would be thrown to the outside walls of the mold leaving the air in the middle with an opening to keep the air pressure equalized. now a little resin would get on the pipes and they would need to be pulled out of the molds before the resin got too hard. that way they could be pulled fairly easily; if I waited too long the pipe would get stuck good; another learning. I would spin the castings for about 10 to 15 mins (by hand) then would take the mold out of the caster and pull the pipe out, then I would have to drill out the resin that would get into the pipe and run a wire through it to get the rest if I wanted to reuse it. this is all really labor intensive. after 5 to 10 castings the pipes are getting pretty chewed up from the drill bit plus sometime I have to grab it with a pare of pliers to get it out of the mold/cast. if I'm going to keep making these trees I'm going to have to get an electric motor for this roto caster. when I was building the roto caster I bought a sewing machine motor and controller for it, thought it would work but its too small. not sure where to go to get a motor and more importantly a controller that would work. I made the entire thing out of square aluminum tubing thinking it would have less mass and be easier to run but its rickety and I would rather have a stronger one but again, money..

[TAY666]

Well, I was lucky enough to run into Jeff at Wonderfest again this year.
I got a casting of one of the lystrosaurus kits. The sculpt is magnificent. Tons of great detail packed into the piece.
I will post pictures of it eventually so others can see how cool it is.
I also got to talk to him at length about this ambitious idea of his. When done it is going to be amazing!
He showed me pictures on his phone of some of the parts he has done, as well as some of the design ideas he has laid out. The croc looks awesome as well. I think it would be a great release all on it's own too.
And what he has to go through to cast those palm fronds is ridiculous. Injecting resin with a syringe to fill the tips.
Way too labor intensive for me.

[lowelker]

Any pics yet? I can't wait for more kits. I'm so excited for the upcoming releases casters have been hinting at.

[lowelker]

Might there be an update on this release?? Just curious if it is still in the works for a kit release.

Thanks,
Jim

[prescenes2]

Aug 1, 2019 10:51:51 GMT -5 lowelker said:

Any pics yet? I can't wait for more kits. I'm so excited for the upcoming releases casters have been hinting at.
Might there be an update on this release?? Just curious if it is still in the works for a kit release.

Thanks,
Jim

He basically told me he is "trying to figure out equipment issues before he thinks about getting these kitted." He does a little here and there on the beasties but not fullon commitment. Hopefully he figures it out and then gets these bad boys going. It'll be quite the scene once he does.

[pbbass3313]

I like the original sculpts that he proposed, but Scott has jumped on this...not that a herd is unacceptable. Let's get to $20k usd!


Would it surprise you to learn that currently, if one would have bought every add-on at original retail price, the total cost would be over $10,000.00? -TT

[lowelker]

I would buy the original sculpts over Scott's releases. Sorry Scott, but the recently released kits on you site are not even close to your level of quality. I haven't purchased any releases lately. The sculpts are not even close to Aurora's style.
You know I love your work and respect you, but the last two series aren't making me drool.

Jeff Brown please please please please please release your kit. I want one.

[lowelker]

Any word on a possible release of the Jeff's Lystro kit?

[jeffbrown]

Hey everyone, Steve got with me tonight said someone was asking about the lystos. well, cant believe its been 6 yrs since I started one them. The last time I worked on them was right before the plague hit so that was maybe Feb/march. Got one or two more legs to detail on that latest one but its sat since then. I think this last one makes 6 total maybe, the rest are packed away somewhere along with the one croc that's done. I molded the first two and gave one to Trever and one to Steve, I think it was the first one made. Once the plague hit we were all sent home to work and I've been working from home ever since and will be for the foreseeable future. I thought for sure I would be working on them more since I'm home all the time now but the computer and related equipment sits on my workbench because there's no room anywhere else and they haven't moved and I haven't touch much of anything since.
I sold out of the trees that were supposed to go with them and the home made rotational caster I use to make the tops of them is out of service again, the plastic bearings I used are worn out. I really need to build a better one before I try and make any more. so no more trees for now.
I did actually buy a spin caster this summer. Talked to the guy that sold it to me about making molds for it; he sold me the mold rings and mold blanks too. he said it took two ppl to handle the 18inch mold ring and I would absolutely have to use a vulcanizer to make any molds. I thought I could use the oven and C clamps like I've seen on YouTube but they were making 9inch molds. so, I went looking for a Vulcanizer and to my surprise they are 2 to 3 times as expensive as the spin caster. There are cheaper ones on eBay but they are 9 to 14 inch vulcanizers and will not work for me, the 18inch ones are way more expensive and rare. there is one currently on eBay that maybe I could swing but its 3 phase power and I will not work for me. so I will continue to look. The tree fern leaves I am working on, those will be made out of metal because resin sags over time, hnts the spin caster. Once I get the prototypes finished (worked on them about 2 weeks ago) AND the vulcanizer I can move forward but it looks like it will be a good 3 to 4 grand for that vulcanizer in the end and I just don't think/know that I can swing that; and the thousands I spent for the caster I thought would be it and that's why I spent my Wonderfest fund on it. so,, short answer,, I don't know when I'll release anything..

[jeffbrown]

NOW, posting that short answer, there are some options... Larry Raza, from eBay and YouTube is selling the perfect Vulcanizer I would need but its 4500 bucks plus the better part of 1000 bucks to ship. but, part of his services he offers are molds made to order so it is possible to have one made w/o having to buy the equipment and doing it myself but already spent the better part of 1000 on the mold rings and mold blanks and I haven't looked into prices for that yet. and/also, Steve did create a smaller base for just one lysto and one or two trees but again the rotational caster is broke so no trees for now. and I really don't want to sell them on a little base, I really want to do this right and if I end up doing the small base I may never get to the huge piece I really want done. so I don't know right now....
I should have some fern leaf prototypes in a few weeks or months depending on when I get to them but they will be made of resin pieces glued together in the end and would not travel well to get to Larry intact, so having someone across the US mold them may not even be possible.

[TAY666]

Well, a lot of that went over my head. And that is saying something, as I am fairly familiar with regular molding. I'll have to talk with Scott a bit about the roto-casting end of things, since he has a rotocater and has used it for years.

I'm just glad to hear from you. Last time I talked with you (at WF) you were having issues with your hand, and I was worried that had gotten to be an issue.
As far as not getting much done during the current trying times. Don't feel bad. I know a lot of people in the same boat. So much stress, and work, leaves no time or energy for hobbies or creativity.

I understand what you are saying about no trees, because you cannot make the tops. Just curious though, was there anything rotocast for tree 3 or 4?

[jeffbrown]

well, Steve made the base and I gave him a couple of the tree base/trumps to add before molding and casting so there is one on each side. One is for the #3 tree and one is for the #1 or 2 tree,, the no 2 tree looks best on it. The roto caster is not needed for the #3 or 4 tree but the #4 has the bottom on it and wouldn't fit either way so I could kit it with the no 3 tree and leave the other as just a stump which was the original idea, just not for this base. The idea was to give the modeler the choice to have the tress standing on the base or knocked over, (storm damage). Also I made another stump recently that's about 5 inches tall that has been savagely broken. the idea was to have the rest of it lying across the base and onto the river base and into the water on that base, no choice with that one. The top of that tree would come with the river base and the bottom with the forest base and when brought together you would see where the tree broke off and fell into the water blocking one unlucky lystro being nailed by a croc. well, that was the idea anyway. The base is bare except for the two trees so think it needs them both or one tree and some small ferns but again, those would have to be made of white metal so they don't wilt over time and I'm back to the white metal spin caster and the need for a vulcanizer. I tried to upload a pic of the lystros and small base but for the life of me couldn't figure it out. went to the forum and tried to add one and thought I might have broken it so gave up on that too.

[TAY666]

I cleared some space and changed the settings, so you should be able to upload some pics now

Or you could just email them to me. [e-mail]

[TAY666]

I got the pics. Hope to get them posted tomorrow after work.
I was working on it today, but with the high winds around here today, the power keeps flickering.
Which of course, kicks the computer off, then there is the whole reboot process, and the cable keeps going out.

So, rather than deal with that anymore, I am just going to wait until tomorrow.